This week, Senator Chris Murphy joins Nick and Goldy to discuss the political failure of neoliberalism and what comes next for the Democratic Party. For decades, both parties embraced free trade and deregulation, promising that economic growth would benefit everyone. But that promise went unfulfilled as wages stagnated, industries collapsed, and inequality soared. Murphy explains how these policies left millions of Americans economically adrift, why Biden’s shift toward industrial policy is a step in the right direction, and how Democrats can remake their economic narrative by focusing on unrigging the system rather than handing out subsidies.
Chris Murphy is the junior United States Senator for the State of Connecticut.
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Nick Hanauer:
The rising inequality and growing political instability that we see today are the direct result of decades of bad economic theory.
Goldy:
The last five decades of trickle-down economics haven’t worked, but what’s the alternative?
Nick Hanauer:
Middle-out economics is the answer.
Goldy:
Because the middle class is the source of growth, not its consequence.
Nick Hanauer:
That’s right.
Speaker 3:
This is Pitchfork Economics with Nick Hanauer, a podcast about how to build the economy from the middle out. Welcome to the show.
Nick Hanauer:
Goldie, today we get to talk to a pretty old friend of mine, Senator Chris Murphy from the great state of Connecticut, and Senator Murphy has been really outspoken and articulate on the issue of the demise of neoliberalism and the damage that neoliberalism has done to the country. And he and I have spoken about this a bunch of times. Sometimes he’s been a little bit of a voice in the wilderness, but obviously more and more people are coming around to his view, but few in my experience are as good at articulating it as him. And so I’m super psyched to have him on the podcast to talk about his views and to share with us what he thinks, why we’re in the box we’re in, and what we should do going forward. So with that, I think we should just talk to Senator Murphy.
Goldy:
Let’s have that conversation.
Chris Murphy:
I’m Chris Murphy, and I represent Connecticut in the United States Senate, and I just plug Connecticut.
Nick Hanauer:
Connecticut, it’s an awesome place.
Chris Murphy:
Connecticut.
Nick Hanauer:
Well, Chris, you and I have talked about this a lot. You’ve been on this not long but longer than most people warpath on the ways in which neoliberalism has harmed the country, and to a certain extent, harmed the Democratic Party. For our listeners, just describe your thesis or sum up your perspective on where we are and how we got here.
Goldy:
And I guess start with your definition of neoliberalism.
Chris Murphy:
Well, I’m not an academic. What I know is that we made a really bad bet. Both parties made a bad bet a generation ago that unfettered global trade was ultimately going to accrue to the benefit of American workers. We were going to lose some jobs and we were going to gain some better ones. That the markets properly adjusted around the edges could solve all of our problems and that government and the public sector really didn’t have to get terribly involved because the markets ultimately had our best interests in mind. That technology unchecked was going to be an unquestioned net benefits, and that the masters of the universe in Silicon Valley would just figure out how to make sure that the rough edges never appeared, and that being a citizen of the world would be satisfying. You didn’t need a local unique place. You could just be a member of the globe.
Chris Murphy:
None of that turned out to be true. The good jobs didn’t replace the jobs that left. The markets were only interested in accruing power and profit to a small handful of people. The technology that came along had some good stuff but had a lot of shitty stuff as well, and it felt really empty to be consumers instead of citizens and to lose our unique local identity and just be members of the same giant global marketplace. It’s left people spiritually empty, devoid of meaning and purpose in a way that has caused a real political crisis in this country as people are casting about for something new. So yeah, whatever you call it, that set of bets that our leaders made on both sides of the aisle has been a disaster for people.
Nick Hanauer:
What was the turning point for you? Because we all got raised to believe all this stuff, and I know, speaking for myself, for a long time, I did. Was there a thing that happened that made you start to say, “Wait a minute, this stuff is just not adding up”?
Chris Murphy:
My mom and her family grew up in New Britain, Connecticut. It’s a small city, 60,000 people. It’s the hardware city. It’s where Stanley Tool was located and Fafnir Bearing, and I grew up hearing about idyllic life in which one family member could have a job in one of those factories and make enough for the whole family so that if you wanted to, as my grandparents did, one parent could stay home and raise the kids. And whether or not that was false nostalgia or not, I’m not certain. There were a lot of not great things happening in New Britain, Connecticut in the 1940s and fifties, but today, it is a city filled with a lot of folks who are really pissed off about the way the world works right now, because Stanley is barely there, Fafnir is gone, and those factories are empty. There were no good jobs that came to replace those jobs and those folks today feel like they were left behind and that the owners of those companies must have made out really well, but everybody else got screwed.
Chris Murphy:
And so that anger and anxiousness that I saw building up in my early political career was a turning point for me in terms of how I thought about trade. But then the most recent moment really is during the Biden administration, I was not writing and thinking and talking about neoliberalism until the Biden administration when I looked and saw an economy that was improving and unemployment going down and crime going down, and people still feeling more pessimistic than ever, reporting epidemic levels of unhappiness. And so it just also seemed clear to me that our traditional measures of government success like GDP and unemployment didn’t actually have as much to do as we thought with the way that people thought about whether they were living fulfilling lives, and that caused me to think about these big questions of meaning and purpose that I think have been compromised by neoliberalism.
Nick Hanauer:
Yeah. Do you reckon that your views represent the consensus in the Democratic Party today, or are you on the fringe?
Chris Murphy:
I think it is neither.
Nick Hanauer:
Okay.
Chris Murphy:
My sense, and you both can answer this question better than I can, my sense is that Joe Biden brought us a long way in that he I think would’ve been categorized as a pretty classic neoliberal part of the group of Democratic leaders that built that consensus in the eighties, nineties and 2000s. And he then looked around and came to the consensus that those markets and that global integration, that sort of market fundamentalism had really hurt us. And so in his four years, in a variety of ways, regrowing industrial policy, revitalizing antitrust power, started to move the whole party away from neoliberalism. But it’s sticky. It’s really sticky, and so I would say that it’s still a little bit more than a 50/50 proposition right now, folks who still believe in markets versus those that think they’ve failed Americans by and large, and I think we’re in a fight for which way this party goes.
Goldy:
But to be clear, when you talk about those who think that markets have failed, you’re not suggesting that they’re anti-market. It’s not socialism you’re talking about. It’s just that markets alone can’t fix our problems.
Chris Murphy:
Yeah, correct. Right, it is a rejection of market fundamentalism. So yeah, with certain exceptions, I’m talking about Democrats that are capitalists and believe that capitalism isn’t working for small businesses, it’s not working for startups, it’s not working for most workers. And so in order to preserve capitalism, you’ve got to fix the rules so that the elites and the big multinational corporations don’t pillage from the rest of us.
Nick Hanauer:
So obviously, it’s hard to defend everything that the Biden administration did given the result of the last election, but I also believe that we were on the right track. It was too little, too late in many ways. And because of I think just two Democratic United States senators, there was a lot of stuff that we could have delivered to people that we did not because we couldn’t get Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema to be onside for the stuff that would have really made a big difference in the here and now for people.
Nick Hanauer:
So obviously, CHIPS, incredibly important thing, the IRA, important thing, but these are things that most people don’t know that we did and certainly aren’t affecting them in the here and now and won’t for a very long time. So from the point of view of your typical person, it was like we didn’t do anything, certainly didn’t do anything for them.
Chris Murphy:
Yeah, and listen, you’re turning around a battleship in the middle of the ocean. We’re talking about a generation or more of belief in largely unregulated markets and global trade and consumerism instead of citizenship, so in four years, you’re frankly not going to be able to turn the whole ship around. And listen, and then I think there’s a question about whether there was a commitment to messaging, a commitment to explaining what was happening. I think they were doing the work, but I’m not sure that they were explaining to people in a way that would be compelling. I know that this makes some people uncomfortable, but you do need to tell folks who’s screwing them, and Donald Trump does a great job of that. Democrats feel a little queasy about it. And so I think if the administration had taken on a few folks by name instead of using generalized terms, they might have had a better story to tell.
Nick Hanauer:
And obviously, Joe Biden himself, as capable a president as he was, his strong suit is not communication obviously. As a younger man, he probably would’ve done a better job, but he was never the kind of orator that Barack Obama was or many folks were. For my own part, I think that it was that combination of the objective fact that for the majority of Americans, their lived experience was worse because of the incredible supply chain shocks that the pandemic represented and the higher prices and all the rest of it, and our inability to really tell the story about where we were trying to take the country that led to the debacle, which is what we are faced with today.
Nick Hanauer:
But I guess we are where we are, and we are where we are at least in some measure because we screwed up, and the question is what to do and how to go forward. And I also think, I guess, I’m looking for your response to this, that Donald Trump is a narcissistic sociopath, as is Elon Musk, but they’re not entirely wrong about everything. Certainly our trade policies need to get rationalized, and while 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico is nuts and incredibly stupid, some of the things that they’re doing do make some sense. What do you think?
Chris Murphy:
Well, I would say not really, given the fact that they are admitting their tariff policy has nothing to do with American workers. They aren’t using tariffs against Mexico and Canada as a means to rebuild the US manufacturing base. They are using those tariffs allegedly as a mechanism to score window dressing agreements on migration policy, and by the way, the agreements that they got are jokes.
Nick Hanauer:
Yeah. They’re pathetic.
Chris Murphy:
They’re agreements for both Mexico and Canada to surge law enforcement to the border that essentially mirrored the commitments they’d already made. So they’re actually being very clear that they’re putting these tariffs on countries, in our hemisphere at the very least, simply because they want to cut some deals that will look good for them on the question of migration. So I just don’t think we should give them much credit, because what we know is that if you really want to rebuild American manufacturing, you have to use both traditional tariff protectionism and subsidy and incentive. You’ve got to be really thoughtful about which industries you’re going to rebuild or help grow in the United States, and you’ve got to match a little bit of protection from unfair trade with a little bit of help and subsidy for those industries to grow.
Nick Hanauer:
No, I agree with you, but I grew up in a manufacturing business competing principally with China, and the Chinese strategy of effectively dumping goods into countries to gain dominant market share and push those industries out of business is something I was fighting against in my early twenties and thirties and on through the family business, so I’m pretty sympathetic to some of the things that they’re doing. But let’s turn to what you think we should do. How should we think about reconstituting the central focus of the party in ways that are constructive, compelling, and effective?
Goldy:
Both from a policy perspective and politically, because clearly, I think you could take a lesson away from the Biden administration, is that the type of long-term investments that they made, if they could pay off a decade from now, there was no political payoff in the short term.
Chris Murphy:
Right, and the pieces that did have immediate policy payoff I just think didn’t end up landing politically with the American public, and I’ll give you examples of those things. So we talked a lot about the child tax credit increase, which did successfully raise half of American families that were in poverty out of poverty. We talked a lot about forgiving student loans, big, big fights on that, tons of public relation capital spent on trying to help kids with student loan debt have that taken off their back. And then we expanded the Affordable Care Act. We gave people increased subsidies to be able to afford more Affordable Care Act plans. I would argue none of that helped us politically, or it was negligibly helpful politically. And there’s a bunch of reasons for that, but I think at the heart of it, Americans really feel a little cold about handouts, about the federal government just coming in and giving them cash either through a tax expenditure or an actual subsidy, and for those who don’t get those subsidies and handouts, it makes them really furious.
Chris Murphy:
So what Americans do want is for the economy to be unrigged, for work to pay, for small businesses to be able to become big businesses, for your rent not to gobble up the entirety of your income. And so I think one of the ways that we fix this is by moving away from an economic message that is really about subsidy and handout to an economic message that is about empowerment and unrigging. And so that would be things like a higher minimum wage, a cap on interest rates or a cap on rent increases, where you’re essentially creating rules that transfer wealth not from the government to individuals, but from private equity funds, hedge funds and banks to individuals. That’s I think much more appealing and similarly impactful.
Nick Hanauer:
Right. It’s also much more economically efficient.
Chris Murphy:
Yeah, because the government [inaudible 00:17:25].
Nick Hanauer:
Just cut out the middle man.
Goldy:
But I thought we were only allowed to redistribute upwards.
Chris Murphy:
Well, and again, listen, we are being handed the opportunity to reintroduce the Democratic Party. Yeah, it’s tragic that we actually have the policies that help lower income and poor voters, and yet we got our clocks cleaned in that demographic, and so now here’s the opportunity. The Trump administration is being unapologetic about handing the government over to the billionaires, shutting down the Consumer Protection Board, passing a massive tax cut for billionaires paid for by cuts to regular people. Okay. We can message the hell out of what they’re doing and they’ll own it, and it’s really unpopular, but people also need to see what we’re for. And so that’s the next step, is showing them that we’re actually committed to the kind of policies that will put more money in your pocket without just transferring it from the government to you.
Nick Hanauer:
Yeah. Can you speak a little bit more about the softer side, which is something you’ve raised a lot, meaning. Because I think at the end of the day, it’s not just about the dollars and cents. It is about feeling like you belong, feeling like there’s a purpose.
Chris Murphy:
Yeah, sure. I think a lot about this, because in the Declaration of Independence is this radical phrase, that the government is charged with guaranteeing your right to pursue happiness. That that’s a wild idea, and happiness comes from feeling like you have a meaning to your life, that you have a purpose when you wake up every day. And I think we just need to realize how quickly traditional purpose and meaning has been taken from Americans. Examples of that are religious affiliation has rapidly declined so fewer people are getting their meaning and purpose through religion. For men in this country, the rise of women in the workplace has meant that men no longer can so easily attach themselves to this identity as the breadwinner for the family. Work used to be a real source of identity and pride, but now that your company really doesn’t give a shit about you and only sees you as a pawn for profit, even your work identity and work purpose seems harder to reach.
Chris Murphy:
And so people want that sense of purpose, that sense of connection to the community, that control over their lives that they’ve lost, and I think Republicans do a better job than Democrats do of messaging on those fronts. That was what a lot of the pandemic messaging was about. We scratched our heads and we were like, “Why are Republicans talking about attacking these vaccine and mask mandates?” Well, it was because they were talking about giving control back to people who felt like they were losing control in their life.
Chris Murphy:
One of the things that gives you purpose is that you have control over your life, and maybe it was a silly thing to give them control over vaccines and masks, but at least it was something that you were getting control over in your life. MAGA is a community. It’s a purpose. You’re part of a group of people committed to the same thing. Democrats don’t construct our party the same way because we judge the cult of personality that has become the Trump movement, but there’s community, there’s connection there. It fulfills a thing that you’re missing in your life. So I just think we’ve got to be more willing to diagnose the ways that people are actually feeling bad, and then you address policies specifically fitted to the emotional state of the electorate.
Nick Hanauer:
In our podcast, we always ask the benevolent dictator question. Obviously, you’re a United States Senator so we can’t make you a dictator, but we could-
Goldy:
Well, I mean, we’ve-
Chris Murphy:
I don’t know.
Nick Hanauer:
We’re getting close.
Chris Murphy:
We’re closer to having one than ever before. It’s not as theoretical a question as it was two months ago.
Nick Hanauer:
But when Trump gets swept out of power and you do become dictator, what would you do?
Chris Murphy:
Yeah, listen, I want an economy where one income is enough to support a family, where if you want the husband or wife to stay home and raise the kids, that you can. I want an economy where leisure time is prioritized, where not only one job is enough but eight hours is enough, so you have your evenings and your weekends to enjoy time with your family or your friends. I want technology, but I want technology that’s regulated so that we get the good stuff and not the bad stuff. I think these social media sites are poisons, and so I’d like us to get back to a world where we liked new technologies, but we just were a little bit more careful about the parts that we accepted and the parts that we Rejected.
Chris Murphy:
I want small businesses to be able to become medium-sized businesses pretty fast and not just be gobbled up or put out of business by the monopolies, so I want a country that really attacks consolidated corporate power and gives specific advantage to small businesses and medium-sized businesses instead of advantage to big businesses. And then I want a country in which we treat each other well, and kindness is valued. And scarcity breeds meanness, so raising the minimum wage and making sure that when you retire, social security is actually enough to pay your bills, that makes it a lot easier for people to be nice to each other. So that economic floor that we create for people, that just makes for a nicer country. I don’t know. How’s that for a start?
Goldy:
You’re describing what we used to think of as a comfortable, secure and dignified middle-class life.
Chris Murphy:
Yeah. I just think if you play by the rules and you work and you work hard, there should be not a guarantee of economic mobility, but a good shot at economic mobility. And listen, we’re entering a world in which it may be that we need less labor hours because obviously technology is moving fast and AI is going to play a role, and with that comes a real opportunity, an opportunity for us to structure an economy, a capitalist economy in which you can have a parent raise kids, and that would be wonderful. I think that is one of the things that drives folks crazy, is that they just have no time any longer, and they feel like they’re constantly just scrambling in order to make ends meet.
Goldy:
But if we actually shared the benefits, broadly shared the benefits from artificial intelligence and other technologies, these billionaires would have no incentive to invest in it because they wouldn’t be able to monopolize all the benefits for themselves. Why would a venture capitalist like Nick put any money into this stuff if he couldn’t get filthy rich at the expense of everybody else?
Chris Murphy:
Yeah, I know. There are these wonderful lies that have been perpetuated and midwifed and sold to us, that idea that you have to give these massive untold rates of return in order for anybody to take any chance on our economy. The fact that wealth will trickle down to everybody else, that if you require a raise in wages, that’ll just hurt the economy and put people out of work instead of give everybody more money in their pocket to spend. That was something that Nick talked long ago about how economies really work. These are wonderful myths that were created by really, really rich people to make more and more money, and we just have to aggressively punch holes in them.
Goldy:
Before we get to the final question, can I just ask you what your level of confidence is that we can get past these dark times and towards the type of America that you would like to build?
Chris Murphy:
Oh, well, I don’t think you can be in this job without being optimistic, and I guess what I see is a growing consensus on economics between traditional left and elements of the traditional right. And I think you see that coming together inside the Republican Party, but it’s still dominated by the billionaires, but there’s a lot of socially and culturally conservative people out there who know the economy is rigged and are ready for somebody to come in with a sincere offer to unrig it. That’s why I talk about Big 10 populism. I talk about a left that makes economics as the tent pole and then invites everybody in who wants to create a fairer economy. Even if you don’t agree with me on guns or you don’t agree with somebody else in the tent on choice, that you’re in if you want to derig the economy, and if we did that, we would be a pretty powerful political movement.
Nick Hanauer:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Well, our final question on our podcast is always, Chris, why do you do this work?
Chris Murphy:
I do this work because I just think that this thing we’re in is so fragile. This idea of a multicultural democracy, it’s revolutionary, and we sit around and we take it for granted because we don’t know anything different, but we’re the only civilization in the history of world that has done this for as long as we have. We decide for ourselves the rules, and we live in a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-racial society, I just feel super lucky.
Chris Murphy:
And so my mother, who grew up really poor and ended up in the middle class, she was like, “I didn’t get there by myself. I got there because of my community. I got there because of a little help from government, subsidized student loans and public housing,” and she was just like, “Don’t take for granted what you have, Chris. Go live your life in a way that gives more people access to what I had and preserves this experiment.” So this is the life I chose, public service. I love people and I love the work, and I just feel like all of us owe a little bit of ourselves to preserve this great American experiment and to make sure that more people have access to the kind of story that my mother had. Real economic mobility, that’s American greatness right there, and I want to be a part of preserving and advancing it.
Nick Hanauer:
That’s fantastic. That’s a good answer.
Goldy:
Yeah.
Nick Hanauer:
Well, thank you so much for being with us.
Chris Murphy:
Thanks, guys. I appreciate you having me on.
Goldy:
I know, Nick, there are a number of political figures who have privately questioned neoliberal and orthodoxy, and neoclassical economic orthodoxy, but I don’t think there’s anybody who has been so publicly thoughtful on these issues as Senator Murphy.
Nick Hanauer:
No, he’s a very articulate, smart guy, and I think he’s the kind of a political leader I think we should both respect and treasure in the United States. I think he really is the kind of leader that would take the country in the right kind of direction. I think he’s an outstanding senator and a good guy, and I think if more folks on the left were as clear about what the problem is and how we should prosecute these issues, I think certainly the Democratic Party but also the country would be in much better shape.
Goldy:
What I really appreciate is his effort to combine both the theory and the policy and the politics, and try to find a way forward for the Democratic Party to be a true opposition party that can actually persuade the American public that they can be trusted to address these issues. It’s really difficult though. I have been involved in this as a blogger and an activist and a journalist and now a podcast host for over 20 years, and I’m a lifelong Democrat. I’m not shy about that. I’m definitely left of center, and I can tell you that dealing with the party as a whole with our allies, that’s the term, right?
Nick Hanauer:
Our allies.
Goldy:
Some of our allies are not open to the idea of-
Nick Hanauer:
Are insane. Some of our allies are insane.
Goldy:
I’m just saying that the idea that we should make economics the tent pole and have this big tent in which we welcome people who are anti-choice, in which we welcome people who don’t support any sort of responsible gun laws, who don’t support same-sex marriage. It’s really hard because that is so much of what the Democratic Party has become, and yet it was clear from the polls, it’s been clear from the outcomes of the elections that majority of voters, or at least a large plurality of voters, do not trust the Democratic Party on economic issues. Biden and Harris made progress. You could see that in the polling, but in general, Republicans, even Trump, the ridiculous, absurd, psychotic things he was saying and proposing, like, oh, yeah, he’s the more responsible person on the economy. The crazy tariffs and the tax cuts on the rich and zero immigration, and in fact, deporting people who are here not just illegally but legally. All the things, oh, yeah, no, that’ll be good for, that’ll be good for the economy. I’m going to be better off with… People just don’t trust Democrats, and there’s a long history behind that.
Goldy:
And man, yes, I agree with him, you can’t do this stuff without trying to be optimistic, but it’s so hard right now, Nick. It is so hard. If we had maybe a dozen more Chris Murphys in the Democratic caucus in the Senate, I might feel a little more confident.
Nick Hanauer:
He’s not wrong. I do want to make one amendment though, and that is that he was right about some of the things that we gave airtime to. The child tax credit, which we messaged poorly because it’s not about reducing poverty, it’s about empowering families, and then we took it away from people.
Goldy:
Right.
Nick Hanauer:
Right? We gave it to them and then we took it away.
Goldy:
That’s right. Loss aversion, Nick. We all know that, that loss-
Nick Hanauer:
We took it away. So not only did we antagonize the people who did not support the child tax credit. We antagonized the people who got the child tax credit by taking it away from them. And student debt, I agree that that issue is morally fraught, but if we had actually eliminated student debt for the 45 million people who have student debt-
Goldy:
To be clear, we tried.
Nick Hanauer:
Yes.
Goldy:
Biden tried, and the courts blocked it.
Nick Hanauer:
Yes, I know. I know that, but they don’t know that.
Goldy:
Right.
Nick Hanauer:
And what we did is we talked a lot about student debt, and then we didn’t deliver the reduction in student debt that we talked about and we antagonize the people who hated the idea of eliminating student debt, so it was a twofer. Anyway, part of the problem is that many of the things that we tried to do for people, we bungled. That would’ve made a big difference. I acknowledge that there are Americans who are queasy about government handouts, unless they’re rich people, in which case they love government.
Goldy:
That’s right.
Nick Hanauer:
Yeah. Rich people love government handouts, poor people don’t. But if we had actually eliminated student debt for the 45 million people who have it, a lot of those people’s lives would’ve been transformed and they would have recognized the benefits of it, and no doubt would’ve been more supportive of the party in the election that came along. But instead, what we did is we told them that we’re going to do it and then we didn’t do it, so it’s just like-
Goldy:
Well, the court said you couldn’t do it, but then that’s Biden’s problem for actually following court orders instead of what Trump does, which is saying, “Nope, I’m just going to do it anyway.” I will say this. He talked about power, which is something that is missing. As we’ve talked about a lot, it’s missing from orthodox economics, the notion of power, and we have to get power back at the center of the empowering people, but understand how much of economics is about power. One thing I hope, and this gets back to that benevolent dictator question we always ask, is that if Democrats take back control, they’re willing to exercise power.
Nick Hanauer:
Well, we shall see.
Goldy:
Yeah. Because that’s the only way you’re going to fix these big things.
Nick Hanauer:
No, for sure.
Goldy:
Is by exercising power instead of the cautious incrementalist approach that tends to be the Democratic way.
Nick Hanauer:
I agree.
Goldy:
If you want to read a little more about what Senator Murphy thinks about neoliberalism and what the Democratic Party needs to do about it, you can read a piece in New York Magazine titled Chris Murphy Wants Democrats to Break Up With Neoliberalism: The Democratic Senator Speaks Out About the Future of his Party, and of course, we’ll provide a link in the show notes.
Speaker 5:
Pitchfork Economics is produced by Civic Ventures. If you like the show, make sure to follow, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Find us on other platforms like Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and Threads, @PitchforkEconomics. Nick’s on Twitter and Facebook as well, @Nick Hanauer. For more content from us, you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter, The Pitch, over on Substack, and for links to everything we just mentioned plus transcripts and more, visit our website, PitchforkEconomics.com. As always, from our team at Civic Ventures, thanks for listening. See you next week.