Medicare for All is the most ambitious health care proposal on the table right now, and the Bernie Sanders campaign is ground zero for making it a reality. In the second episode of a two-part series on health care, former Ohio State Senator and Sanders’ campaign co-chair Nina Turner explains why widely available and affordable high-quality health care would be revolutionary for the United States.
Nina Turner was an Ohio State Senator from 2008 until 2014. In 2017, Turner became president of Our Revolution, a progressive political action organization spun out of Senator Bernie Sanders’ 2016 presidential campaign, and she is currently the national co-chair of Sanders’ 2020 campaign. Her podcast, We The People with Nina Turner, is available everywhere podcasts are posted.
Nina Turner: A lot of these people are bought and sold by this industry, by Wall Street, by the pharmaceutical industry, by the healthcare industry. They don’t want to upset their owners. I’m sorry, excuse me, their donors.
Nick Hanauer: Why in the world would you want to send somebody to a primary care doctor to burn a wart off when you can send them to a specialist and charge $2,000?
Nina Turner: They lack the intestinal fortitude, either ovaries or balls.
Stephanie Ervin: From the offices of Civic Ventures in downtown Seattle, this is Pitchfork Economics with Nick Hanauer. An honest conversation about how to make capitalism work for everyone.
I’m Stephanie Ervin. I run a lot of our advocacy and campaign work here at Civic Ventures.
Nick Hanauer: I’m Nick Hanauer, Founder of Civic Ventures.
Okay, this is part two of our health care deep dive, and today we’re going to talk to Nina Turner and Nina Turner is co-chair of-
Stephanie Ervin: Of the Sanders for President campaign.
Nick Hanauer: Yeah, and we’re going to talk about their Medicare for all proposal. It should be super interesting.
Stephanie Ervin: Yeah. She’s a super fascinating person with a really interesting personal background that clearly animates a lot of the work that she’s been doing over the last few years, and her entire career as a local elected leader herself. And now really trying to lead a movement for better outcomes for people, and doing that now as a part of the Bernie Sanders campaign. It’ll be fun to talk to her specifically about Medicare for all and the proposal they’re stressing.
Nick Hanauer: Right. I think what we learned in the first episode from T.R. Reid, and just our own experiences that almost anything would beat the existing system we have. So it’ll be really fun to talk about something, a new alternative.
Stephanie Ervin: Totally.
Hi Nina, can you hear me?
Nina Turner: I can.
Stephanie Ervin: Hi, how are you?
Nina Turner: I’m good, how are you?
Stephanie Ervin: I’m great. Are you in Ohio or where are you right now?
Nina Turner: No, I’m back in D.C. I just got back this morning.
Stephanie Ervin: Got it. So earlier we talked to journalist, T.R. Reid, who’s been studying healthcare systems, internationally as a journalist and author. We didn’t focus on any one plan specifically, because frankly most of the plans anywhere else in industrialized country are better than the American plan for healthcare. But we wanted to talk to you to feature Medicare for all because it feels like presenting the most sort of ambitious plan could at least help us bend the needle towards getting us out of this mess. So I’d love for you to just tell us more about Medicare for all and the plan that Senator Sanders is proposing.
Nina Turner: You know, I would love to talk about that. Senator Sanders has been really pushing for this and the focus really is, is that you take the Medicare system that we have right now that is for people who are 65 years and older, and you broaden that out to everyone. The Senator believes, and I believe the same thing, that health care is a moral right. The system as it is designed now we pay more… We pay, we just don’t see it that way. And we pay a private corporate tax for our health insurance, those of us who have it. Everybody does not have it. There are about 30 million people in this country who don’t have any healthcare at all. That’s even with the Affordable Care Act, aka Obamacare. And then people who do have health insurance through their jobs, a lot of them are under insured and they pay premiums and copays and other fees that are really not that affordable and on top of all of that in this country, we don’t even have as good a health outcomes as some other nations do. Meanwhile, we pay more.
Stephanie Ervin: You know, all the polls show that Medicare for all is vastly preferred by folks. But then all the polls also indicate just a incredible level of confusion among people about what they think that means. So one thing I found interesting in one of the health care tracking polls is that the vast majority of Americans correctly believe that their taxes would go up to fund a Medicare for all system. But about the same amount, 69% think that they would still have to pay copays and deductibles. So to me this feels like one of the sort of flaws in selling a universal healthcare plan or Medicare for all. Can you speak to that and sort of what the plan is for making sure people understand what Medicare for all really would mean?
Nina Turner: Well you bring up a very good point, Stephanie. Confusion is the name of the game and there are forces in this country, ie. The healthcare industry itself and a lot of those investors in that industry that really don’t want to see this happen. So confusion is the name of the game. Once we have a Medicare for all type system in this country, Medicare for all as Senator Sanders envisions it.
Bernie Sanders: What Medicare for all does is provide comprehensive healthcare to every man, woman, and child in this country. If you’ve got good insurance now, Medicare for all is better. They will be no deductibles, no copayments.
Nina Turner: Not biting around the edges. Not kind of, sort of, but all the way Medicare for all. Those premiums and copays and deductibles go away. And there are studies that show very clearly that the average family would actually pay less under a Medicare for all system than what they pay now, thereby saving their family money. I people to think of it as a comprehensive coverage. It will include all of their primary care, preventative care, inpatient, outpatient services, and they won’t have to pay that any more through their job. Another thing, Stephanie, I want people to think about is that the system that we have now is tied to a job. And just imagine, and those of us, we have friends, we have family members who have lost their jobs. And once you lose your job in this country, you don’t have health care, and if you can get it, it is so high through Cobra, that you can’t really afford it.
What the Medicare for all system, envisioned by Senator Sanders, universal health care envisioned by him, means all of that goes away. And your access to health care as a human being in this country will become a right. And you don’t have to worry about having those copays and those deductibles because all of that stuff is already paid for by this… I want people to think of it as a social contract. We’re putting this money in a pot and we’re all reaping the benefits of it.
So no one has to worry about going to the doctor and not being able to afford the care that they need. So again, preventative care, inpatient, outpatient, dental, vision, hearing, maternity, I mean all of those things that a industrialized nation such as the United States of America should provide, but none of the deductibles, copays that people are paying now, all of that stuff would go away. More comprehensive system, a universal system and no one would have to worry, and you get to keep your same doctors because, Stephanie, that is another misnomer in this, is that somehow the government is going to take over the care of… No, you keep your same doctor. You like Dr. Jones, you get to keep Dr. Jones. Your dentist, you get to keep your dentist. The only thing is that the money that’s paying for it comes from this pot that all of us are paying into.
Stephanie Ervin: Well, thanks so much for that explanation. I think one thing you brought up that’s important are these myths around employer provided coverage. I was thinking, it’s not just about folks who when they lose their job, lose coverage with it, but there’s also got to be an impact on how dynamic our economy is, right? Because I know folks who have great health care or even just good healthcare through their employer and because they don’t want to lose it, even though they don’t like their job that much or don’t feel like they’re being challenged, don’t leave to seek better opportunity because they have some greater health concerns for their family that keep them tied to their employer provided care. And they’re not willing to risk a lapse in care or having to pay all those massive out of pocket expenses to be individually insured.
Nina Turner: That’s right, Stephanie. It leaves the overwhelming majority of us vulnerable. And God forbid if you lose your job. If you lose your job, you don’t have any health care. I mean it’s asinine as we think about it. If we really just take a moment to reimagine, and wrap our minds around it. How it just does not make a whole lot of sense to have health care tied to employment. Meaning, those who are gainfully employed, they get health care. Those who are not, they don’t. If the economy starts to fail, you don’t get health care. It makes no sense. And you know, one of the greatest moral leaders of our time in the history of the world, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., he critiqued the healthcare system in this country and he talked about, of all the things that are inhumane, the inequality surrounding healthcare is one of the worst that he’d seen.
I’m just paraphrasing, you know what he had to say about that. But we do have the opportunity to do this a different way, and it gives people freedom and security. You know, and you don’t have to worry. There are no networks, no premiums, none of that stuff. You get to choose your doctor, you don’t have to worry about a job, you don’t have to worry about paying at the point of service. The point that you’re raising, you don’t have to worry about losing your health insurance because it is attached to a job. And I know many people as you as you do and I’m sure everybody that’s with us, they know people too who have health insurance but they still have to pay an inordinate fee or also copays.
I was just talking to a good friend of mine, Stephanie, just the other night and he has good health insurance and he had a health scare and had to go to the emergency room. And when he got to the emergency room, they checked him out and everything and then they said, “Well to take you to the next step, you’ve got to pay us $750.” So I mean, just think about that. You’re in the emergency room, not your routine checkup with your doctor. You are in the emergency room and they run all these tests on you. Then once they figure out what’s going on, they say to you, “Okay, now to continue, you got to pay $750 and if you can’t pay today, we are going to charge you 10% more and we’ll bill you.” Think about that. This is somebody who is solidly in the middle class.
Stephanie Ervin: Right, and what choice do you have at that point?
Nina Turner: That’s right. Emergency room. I just really want people to wrap their minds around that emergency room. So it really is an unethical system. You know, it is a profit driven system that really gives no care to the individuals in this country. Really, what Senator Sanders vision is, is to do away with that, so that no one will have to worry about whether or not they can afford healthcare that it is a moral right in this country. So his Medicare for all act of 2019…
And then the other thing about our seniors, because Medicare as it exists right now is one of the most popular federal programs in the country. You ask most elders the overwhelming majority, they love this program, but what it does not provide, it doesn’t provide vision services and it doesn’t provide it if we have an elder that needs a hearing aid or something like that to continue to live a good quality life. Medicare for all as it exists right now does not contain any of that. And so what this plan will do, it will expand the coverage for our elders in this country, which is a beautiful thing.
Stephanie Ervin: You talked about inequality. What do you think the actual impact would be if we had a Medicare for all system on wrestling with inequality in America?
Nina Turner: Oh my God, it would change that dynamic. You know, Senator talks a lot about the disparities within the disparities and we know that racism and bigotry exists and it exists within medical systems in this country. It’s unfortunate to say, but what that will do is it will give access to people who ordinarily would not have it. For example, black women die at higher rates during childbirth than any other groups in this country, by far.
Stephanie Ervin: That’s shocking.
Nina Turner: They are usually less likely… Right, shocking… less likely to be insured and if they are insured, they’re under insured. So a Medicare for all system would take that burden away, and allow black women and also other women who are poor, just women in general. But I want to laser focus on black women because their maternal rates are higher, and also our infant mortality rates in the black community, higher. All of that is connected to a lack of being able to afford high quality health care and that should not be. This is not a third world country. This is not a country that is not wealthy. We are the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth and this is really one of the many stains on this country. The fact that maternal death rates in the African American community are still very high and higher than any other group. That would take that away.
Then when you think about people who don’t have insurance right now, you know this would give everybody in this country the opportunity to have, not to wrestle with insurance company. I mean just imagine, you have services and all of us have had those moments where we have needed services, either prescriptions that you wait and the pharmacist tells you, “Oh your insurance company won’t pay for this.” All of that goes away. I mean how is it that insurance companies get to dictate what you need, and not your doctor. So those are the kinds of everyday things that would change for us in this country with a Medicare for all type system. I want people to think about it in this way. You are already paying a tax because I know a lot of people are [inaudible 00:14:34] about, “Oh, it’s going to raise my taxes.” You’re already paying a tax. It’s a private tax. [crosstalk 00:14:41].
Stephanie Ervin: It’s called copay deductible.
Nina Turner: Copay, deductible to private insurance companies. If we have Medicare for all, that goes away. So instead of paying a private tax to insurance companies, it’s now public and it is less money and your quality of health care increases. Your also peace of mind, and I don’t know if you can put a number except, you know, peace of mind. Your peace of mind increases. If anything catastrophic should happen. God forbid, to you or one of your family members, you don’t have to worry.
You know, another young lady told the story. She is a medical doctor and her husband who is a teacher, he was diagnosed with a type of cancer. Now this is a medical doctor. Her husband is a teacher, so they are solidly middle class. She thought that they were going to have to sell their home, sell their home because her husband contracted cancer. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands of people. In this country, the highest rates… You know, bankruptcy was also linked to not being able to afford healthcare costs. All of that will go away and it will go away. We’ll have higher quality of care, you will pay less and your quality of life will increase that. Is that an investment well worth it.
Stephanie Ervin: One thing that’s come up recently and always comes up when folks are attacking sort of big ambitious ideas is this issue of the fact that Medicare for all would cover undocumented immigrants. So can you just explain what the moral and an importantly the economic arguments are for making sure undocumented people are included in a single pair system?
Nina Turner: I mean, it’s just the humane thing to do? And if people want to think about it from a personal standpoint, if we allow people just to be sick and not seek care, that impacts all of us. No one should be in this country and not be able to have access to health care and God forbid if there’s something contagious, you know, so it is both a morally right thing to do. But it is a responsible thing to do in terms of making sure that people are healthy so nobody else gets sick.
Stephanie Ervin: So if Medicare for all is so popular, why do you think there aren’t more politicians, especially those on the sort of democratic presidential stage? Why aren’t there more folks raising their hands saying they support it?
Nina Turner: Because they lack the intestinal fortitude, either ovaries or balls six to one. This is sad to think that now we know all of this and we know that we have the capacity to pay for it. We bailed out Wall Street to the tune of $29 trillion, that’s trillion with a T and did not bat and eye in this country. And then you have leaders who have been elected to serve you and your interests, and the interests of future generations and they hesitate. The real reason besides the lack of intestinal fortitude, Stephanie, is also bought and sold. A lot of these people are bought and sold by this industry, by Wall Street, by the pharmaceutical industry, by the health care industry. They don’t want to upset their owners. I’m sorry, excuse me. Their donors. They don’t want to upset their donor base.
So they will sell you out just not to affect their donor base, and that that really is at the root of all of this. And then just even if we could go back in time, I want people to go back in time with us, Stephanie. Think about when Medicare for all was first being debated in this country and programs like Social Security and Unemployment Insurance and Medicaid. All of those programs were called socialist type programs. They were decried by the same types of people back then as they are now. But thank goodness that you had some folks in that time as you have right now in Senator Bernie Sanders, that continued to push and because of that we have Medicare for our elders in the country. Because of that, we have Medicaid for poorer people in this country. Because of that we have Unemployment Insurance. All of these things were said that they couldn’t be done.
It just leads me to one of my favorite people in history, President Nelson Mandela. He used to say, “It always seems impossible until it is done.” We can do this as a nation. This should be a number one priority in this nation to ensure that everyone in this country not have access to health care, but has high quality health care, that they don’t have to haggle with insurance companies. Their doctors don’t have to be told what to do by insurance companies based on the cost, but that they will be able to treat their patients the way that they know they need to be treated to sustain your life. And we can’t do any great thing in this world without having our health. And that doesn’t matter if we’re black, or white or Hispanic or Asian or Native or something in between native born or immigrant.
Our health is really our wealth and businesses, Stephanie… I know we’re putting a lot in here, but I do want to say something about what it means to businesses, especially small businesses. So instead of them having to navigate, [inaudible 00:20:18] health insurance market, they don’t have to juggle those calls. All of that burden is taken off of them and they would just simply pay the payroll taxes for their contribution. That’s it exactly what they do right now. So businesses can then begin to focus on what they’re designed to do, their mission, their product, hiring people. So not only is this good for the individual, this is also good for businesses, in this country.
Stephanie Ervin: How close do you think we are to realizing this future? It feels like closer than ever before, but I want to get your take on that.
Nina Turner: Yeah, I think so. I do. I feel it. I mean everywhere I go I’ve traveled all over this country. You know, in my capacity with the Senator and even before this 2020 run at the president of our revolution, traveled all over this country and people really are excited about this notion that this could happen. That it is right within our reach. One of the things I like to always say, “If we could go to the moon, we can have Medicare for all.” This is about having the will to do it. It is about millions of people across this country galvanizing and bringing our synergy and our energy together to demand from our elected officials that we want this to happen.
This change is not going to come just because we have a visionary who really wants it, and has been pushing it, and Stephanie, in all accounts has really set the democratic party agenda on this. No one can ignore this right now. We have to have the strong conversation about Medicare for all. I think it is right in our region. Of course, you know, I believe that the only person that is running for office right now for president who does have intestinal fortitude to push this through with millions of his closest friends, is Senator Bernie Sanders.
Stephanie Ervin: So I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today, Nina. I have just one last question for you, which is, why do you do this work? Why are you involved?
Nina Turner: Oh my God. Stephanie, it’s a mission. Oh my God. I feel compelled. My mother died at a very young age. She died when she was 42 years old, a aneurism.
Stephanie Ervin: Oh wow. I’m sorry.
Nina Turner: Oh my God, me too. I’m about to tear up just thinking about it. I miss her so very much. But she was really young, 42 years old, aneurism burst in her brain. I’m the oldest of seven children, and my baby sister was 12 my mom died. All of us are two years apart. And that was really a defining moment for me. I’d always been pushed by my grandmother to be the best and to be of service, and to have my mom die so young, just really [inaudible 00:22:59] something to me that I wanted to make her proud even in death.
Every day, every move that I make from being an elected official, whatever level, whether it was a local level or state level, government being a college professor, being a wife, a mom, I’ve always tried to have as my guiding principle, my guiding force, those words that my grandmother spoke to me, which was to be the best and to be of service.
So this is a ministry for me and it is informed by my lived experience. And you know, my mother, who was under-insured, who was among the working poor, who had a job and didn’t have a job, had a job, didn’t have a job, had a job, didn’t have the job. And the stressors of being a custodial parent to seven children… and then on top of being a black woman in America, that’s a lot.
I believe that stress killed my mom, but it is because of her memory, and because of all that my grandmother, her mother instilled in me, that went to whom much is given much is required. Everything that I do, I do it as if it is a ministry and I consider myself very much a hell raising humanitarian. I don’t go along to get along, you know? I will stand up and I take the hard hits and I have taken hard hits and I continue to take hard hits, but I’m doing what I believe is right.
What is just and what is good. And in that way, I’m just so inspired because I come from a working class family. I know what it means to be really, really, really, really poor. You know, not to have food. You know, have my mother cry herself to sleep at night because she couldn’t afford to buy seven kids Christmas gifts. You know, feeling like a failure. A mom who had times when it could commit suicide. So I did it, and I’m just so committed. So pushing very hard to ensure that they are to decrease the number of people who feel like my mom. So it is the hell raising humanitarian in me, Stephanie, that keeps me going every single day.
Stephanie Ervin: Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I teared up myself while you were saying it and it amazes me and no matter how old we get, we’re still trying to make our moms proud. So I can relate to that.
Nina Turner: Yes, amen. I’m a faith woman, so I do believe she’s in heaven saying, “You go girl.” But yeah, no matter how old we get and no matter how old our moms are, or even if they’re not in this plane of existence, we are always seeking to make them proud. Yeah. Amen.
Stephanie Ervin: Well thank you so much. We’re at time, but we really appreciate you talking to us.
Nina Turner: Thank you. I really do appreciate the opportunity and keep doing the good work that you all are doing and helping people to open their minds and reimagine what the possibilities in this life can be.
Stephanie Ervin: You too. Thank you so much for everything.
It was so nice to connect with Nina and at the end it definitely felt like we were having sort of a different kind of conversation. We were just connecting as two people who are trying to make their parents proud, and do something important and meaningful in the world. But it was also really great to do a little myth-busting around this Medicare for all proposal.
Nick Hanauer: Right. So I continue to be relatively agnostic to the alternatives to the existing system. There are a bunch of different approaches I think, that are available. Where I start is that we need to move away from the kludgy mess, which is the American healthcare system. I’ll say again, this is the world’s largest price fixing scheme. It’s a terrible system that’s inefficient, ineffective and too expensive. So Medicare for all is one very, very appealing alternative to that. You know, it’s simple in the sense that you’ve just got to expand an existing program to include more and more people.
I continue to believe that when we included all people, the system would both work better and get cheaper. I think it’s a realistic alternative. I’m not positive it’s the best, like it’s exactly what we should do, but I’d be down for trying it no matter what.
Stephanie Ervin: See I feel pretty strongly that Medicare for all is absolutely the answer. I’m sick of sort of tinkering around the edges and acting like people’s attachment to the private health insurance and like system is real. I think people express that through liking their doctors and actually politicians sort of misunderstand what that means, and think it’s some attachment to having private health insurance, or an employer provided system for most people.
Nick Hanauer: As if we all really love United Healthcare.
Stephanie Ervin: [crosstalk 00:28:06] Right, or like going on a network and having to look up what provider will actually serve us at any given time. Or if we move trying to find new doctors for our kids. No one enjoys that process and the stress of having to change it if it ever happens because of a job change or a health insurance change. So I think politicians really misunderstand that, and to continue to act like we can sort of baby step our way into things when a universal system, the best part about it is the scale that realizes all those efficiencies.
That’s where you actually are making the financial shifts for people that make it totally worth it. Where people’s taxes may go up, but now deductibles and copays are non-existent. So you don’t realize that in the same way, if I’m still holding onto my employer provided coverage, but I’m also paying taxes that provide for some people to now participate in a Medicare for those who want it program. So that’s my issue. I think politicians get it wrong. They read the room wrong, which is nothing new for politicians, but then I also think that we just don’t realize the huge financial benefits unless we go to the scale that we are capable of [crosstalk 00:29:21] including everybody.
Nick Hanauer: And that may be very true, and that may be very true. Well, hopefully we’ll do something.
Stephanie Ervin: It feels like we’re closer than ever.
Nick Hanauer: Yeah, I agree. I agree.
David Goldstein: I’m David Goldstein, Senior Fellow at Civic Ventures. So Nick, either you spark a lot of conversation or you’re really confusing because we’ve been getting a lot of calls from listeners, asking questions.
Nick Hanauer: Yeah, awesome. And they’re calling on our fabulous number, which is 731-388-9334.
Speaker 1: Hello Nick. My name is Tara [Patala 00:30:02] and I’m from New York City. My question is, how can we change the narrative of how immigrants contribute and enhance the economy of the United States as opposed to draining the government coffers, and taken away jobs from low and middle skill Americans? Thank you for taking my question and I’ll look forward to listening to our podcasts on your platform devoted to this timely issue.
David Goldstein: So Nick, I think this is a great question because in terms of… I’ll admit the narrative has been pretty poor, but when you’re constructing a narrative about immigration, both the empirical evidence and the sound economic theory is on the side of more immigration.
Nick Hanauer: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first and foremost, you have to remember that the economy is people, and the more people they are who are fully integrated in the economy as workers, entrepreneurs, well-paid consumers, the bigger and better the economy gets. The vast majority of the GDP growth that America has enjoyed over the last decades has been a consequence of the fact that we have more people here.
David Goldstein: Right, right. People should understand that we’ve talked about the problems in Japan for decades now with how they’re kind of mired in slow growth. That’s because their population is shrinking. To be clear, in the United States, if not for immigrants and their children, our population would be shrinking. The fertility rate does not meet the replacement rate. So a big chunk of our GDP growth has come from immigration.
Nick Hanauer: If you just think about it in primitive terms, if you’re a business and you want to grow, you can only grow two ways. You can charge more to the people that you already do business with, which is possible but difficult. Or you can find new people to sell to. So a growing market, obviously more and more people equals an easy way to continue to grow businesses and generate more activity in the economy. But it does go deeper than that, right? Because, there’s a strong diversity argument for growth too.
David Goldstein: So one of the things we do know is that immigrants, they bring a lot of cognitive and experiential diversity to the economy. And we know that immigrants file more patents than the native born. They start more businesses than the native born. They create more jobs than the native born. Overall, it’s hard to get here either legally or illegally. It takes a lot of resourcefulness. These are some of the most resourceful people in the world, and they are a boon to the economy.
Nick Hanauer: Obviously highly motivated to be here, and they didn’t come here to be on the dole. They came here to try to build a new life for themselves and their families.
David Goldstein: For what all of our ancestors came here for.
Nick Hanauer: By the way, I’m from a family of immigrants myself.
David Goldstein: Yeah, my maternal grandfather was an immigrant. So my mother, child of an immigrant. The other thing we know, and this is a common fear that immigrants are going to come in and take away our jobs. In fact, there have been tons of studies on this. One of the most famous ones was in Florida after the Cuban boat lift when tens of thousands of Cubans suddenly flooded the Florida economy. It turns out that no, in fact Florida ended up creating more jobs than these people filled because the economy is what?
Nick Hanauer: People.
David Goldstein: It’s people.
Nick Hanauer: Right.
David Goldstein: If you have a question for Nick on any economic issue, please give us a call and leave us a message at 731-388-9334.
Nick Hanauer: So on the next episode of Pitchfork Economics, we’re going to talk about jobs and automation.
Stephanie Ervin: Pitchfork economics is produced by Civic Ventures. The magic happens in Seattle in partnership with Larj Media, that’s L-A-R-J Media and The Young Turks network. Find us on Twitter and Facebook at Civic Action. Follow our writing on Medium at Civic Skunk Works and peak behind the podcast scenes on Instagram at Pitchfork Economics. And one more, you should definitely follow Nick on Twitter at Nick Hanauer. As always, a big thank you to our guests and thanks to you for listening from our team at Civic Ventures, Nick Hanauer, Zach Silk, Jasmin Weaver, Jessyn Farrell, Stephanie Ervin, David Goldstein, Paul Constant, Stephen Paolini and Annie Fadely. See you next week.